Alan Fleischmann
Founder & CEO of Laurel Strategies and the host of "leadership Matters' on SiriusXM
We sat down with the man behind the nation’s most powerful CEOs and c-suite professionals, Alan Fleischmann, to discuss his passion for helping people.
We sat down with the man behind the nation’s most powerful CEOs and c-suite professionals, Alan Fleischmann, founder and CEO of Laurel Strategies and host of SiriusXM show, Leadership Matters. Alan discussed his early entrepreneurial days, his passion for helping people find their voice, the importance of trust, and much more.
In this episode, Willy welcomes Alan Fleischmann to the show. Alan is the founder, chairman and CEO of Laurel Strategies, a global CEO advisory firm that designs comprehensive strategies on corporate communications, government affairs, crisis management, investor relations, and more. Previously, Alan was a founding principal and member of the managing board and operating committee of Albright Stonebridge Group. Additionally, he is a lifetime member of the Council of Foreign Relations and executive committee board member of the Atlantic Council. He has served on the board of the Jane Goodall Institute, Eisenhower Fellowships, and was a founding member of the Clinton Global Initiative. He serves on the board of the American Council on Germany, the James R. Jordan Foundation, the Cal Ripken Foundation, the JUST Capital Foundation, and more. He attended American University for undergrad where he was valedictorian and student body president, and also earned his master’s degree from John Hopkins University. Additionally, he is the host of Leadership Matters on Sirius XM Radio.
To kick things off, Alan tells the story of his father’s immigration to the U.S. from Germany and how he then became a soldier in World War II. Incidentally, he uncovered a German spy ring that had been conspiring to assassinate General Eisenhower, which became a defining moment of the early war. His father was singled out by the general himself and shared many special moments with him throughout the war. Alan’s family maintains a relationship with the Eisenhower family to this day.
Early on in Alan’s life, he aspired to become a congressman. He soon realized, however, that he could have an even greater impact on society by teaching others how to be leaders. Helping people find their voices and amplify them remains at the core of his mission today. Shifting gears, Willy and Alan discuss grief, loss, and lessons learned. Often, it’s the people that challenge you and are willing to speak their minds that we miss the most.
Then, Willy asks Alan to elaborate on how his show, Leadership Matters, has changed the way he asks questions. In many ways, the essence of Alan’s firm is promoting the idea of having the best questions, rather than the best answers. He emphasizes the importance of listening, asking questions, and then forming the right strategy. During his time at Albright Stonebridge Group, Alan became restless to start something of his own. The more he worked with CEOs, the more evident the need for focusing on leaders and their c-suite became. It was a major decision to move on from Albright, but the entrepreneurial bug won in the end.
Alan is the type of person that is all-in and surrounds himself with like-minded people. Laurel’s success return is 99.9%, and they don’t make promises they won’t deliver on. He truly cares about his work and connecting with others in a way that lets them know they are understood. Additionally, Laurel really differentiates the way they understand their customers. At the end of the day, Alan strives to be loyal and trustworthy.
Next, Alan elaborates on the role he had in determining Forbes Magazine’s list of CEO awards. Many of Laurel’s clients stepped up in big ways over the last year. This includes speaking out about racial injustice, avoiding layoffs in the early stages of the pandemic, and joining forces to ensure access and opportunity was available. He shares the success story of Albert Bourla, the CEO of Pfizer. Despite pushback from every other pharmaceutical company, Albert insisted that a vaccine was possible within the year, and he was right. This optimism led to a push toward collaboration, investment in bio labs, and breaking down barriers in a competitive industry to produce a vaccine.
In this day and age, trust is the most important factor for relationships in business. Alan sits on so many boards himself and shares what he looks for in board members for his company. He is in the advice-giving business and is expected to share his opinions often. Having a board of his own is a way for him to receive advice from trusted people. Alan sits on the board at Morehouse College, which gives him perspective on the shifting expectations of African American colleges. First and foremost, Morehouse has taught young men to be leaders. To create the kind of society and capitalism we all want to see, it's crucial to be investing in the next generation.
As one of the founders of JUST Capital, Alan describes the organization’s approach, which is to use definitive metrics to quantify issues in the relationship between making money and being good corporate citizens. They have even implemented a ranking system to encourage and congratulate positive actions for CEOs. In closing, Alan shares how leaders can establish trust in their own cultures in the midst of the uncertainty we face in today’s world.
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Webcast transcript:
Willy Walker
Thank you, Susan. Good afternoon to those of you on the east coast and good morning to those further to the west where I am today. It's a real joy to have my old friend, colleague, partner, a lot of different things I could call Alan. Alan Fleischmann, joining me today. Let me do a quick intro of Alan and then I very much look forward to diving into our conversation.
Alan Fleischmann is the founder, chairman and CEO of Laurel Strategies, a global CEO strategic advisory firm for leaders, chief executives, and their C suite. Laurel strategies helps design comprehensive strategies on corporate communications, government affairs, crisis management, investor relations, media relations, corporate governance, and business intelligence.
Previously, Alan was a founding principal and member of the managing board and operating committee of Albright Stonebridge Group. Alan is a lifetime member of the council on foreign relations and an executive committee board member of the Atlantic Council. He has served on the board of the Jane Goodall Institute, the Eisenhower Fellowships, and as a founding member of the Clinton Global Initiative. In addition, he serves on the board of the American Council on Germany, the Cal Ripken Foundation, the James R. Jordan Foundation, the Deepak Chopra Foundation, and the Just Capital Foundation. And there is more.
Fleischmann is a board member of the Phillips Collection art museum, the Washington National Opera of the John F Kennedy Center for the performing arts, a member of the board of trustees of Morehouse college and Carnegie Hall. Alan went to American University undergrad where he was valedictorian and student body president, and he received a master's degree from Johns Hopkins. Alan is host of Leadership Matters on SiriusXM® radio, and his authored numerous articles on leadership and CEO statesmanship. He is married to the wonderful Dafna lives in Washington, DC and as the father of two daughters, one of whom was just accepted to Columbia University. So many, many congratulations to you on that, Alan.
Let's start here. Let's back up a little bit. Probably, I don't think you thought I was going to go here, but let's start by talking about your mom and dad, Arnold and Laura, both amazing people. How about starting by telling the story about your dad coming to America from Germany enlisting to go fight in World War II only four years after arriving in America. And the unique relationship he forged with Dwight D. Eisenhower.
Alan Fleischmann
I did not think you were going there but first I should thank you for having me on. I've been a real fan of this webcast and I've had you on my show and that was a big thrill for me. So, I don't want to let you down, my friend, and I look forward to the conversation.
I didn't expect you to talk with my mom and dad. But you're right. Everything does with me, start with them in the way I think of the world. My dad did come to this country in 1940 as a young teenager, and then turned around as a soldier in World War II. He was in the battle of the Bulge. And as a young infantryman, he got caught up in what became a really major moment in the early war where he identified a spy ring, a very famous spy ring where there were a bunch of German assassins who had, I guess, presented themselves as American. My father was one of the folks who figured out that they were indeed German, and they were destined or determined to assassinate Dwight Eisenhower. When Eisenhower learned of this, my father was plucked out from being on the front lines and ended up being assigned to Eisenhower and was indexed at the Little Red School House at the surrender at the end of the war with General Eisenhower and had many many special moments during the war. The end of the war where he was with General Eisenhower and then with General Clay where he stayed on in Germany, in Berlin for several years that followed. And to this day, we've got amazing relationships with wonderful friends and family in Germany from that period of time. And we have a very close relationship with several members of the Eisenhower family. Also, from the last years of that time. My dad was a very humble man, an incredible human being who he wrote a book a few years ago called Lights and Shadows. He died a year and a half ago at the age of 93.5. But he was a special man as was my mother. And like you, we honor those who came before us and it's a big part of what our ambition is about, and certainly in my case and your case as well.
Willy Walker
There's a piece of your family's history Alan, that caught my attention, which is that they had a department store in Baltimore. There was actually Warren Buffett’s first company acquisition. Have you ever discussed that deal with the Oracle of Omaha?
Alan Fleischmann
Yes, I have. What it was is that there was a great family branch that went to Baltimore from the 1800s, where a couple of siblings went to Baltimore, and then a few siblings stayed in Germany and that extraordinary family in Baltimore were really the ones who helped get the family in Germany out in the 40s. They were very devoted to their cousins to get them safely on the other side of the Atlantic. There was a great department store in Baltimore in the age when every great city had a great department store or two. One of them was called Hochschild Kohn, a very prominent department store, which our cousins actually owned. And actually, a great great uncle of mine was one of the leading partners. Another great great uncle lived with my father in Germany. And when Warren Buffett set out to start Berkshire Hathaway, his very first investment was buying that department store in 1966. And actually, one of our cousins, actually, in lieu of getting cash, took equity in Berkshire Hathaway and joined the Board and extremely close to Warren Buffett to this day, and on the board to this day. And on the board to this day. It was a good investment, actually.
At one point, during one of these wonderful gatherings in Washington, I've seen him a few times in my life. I had the ability to sit next to him and I brought up, thinking that would be an interesting conversation. What struck me about Warren Buffett, which says so much about his leadership, is he loved annual reports. He loved the day when people wrote their annual report. He would really get into the kind of messaging in them. He also loved genealogy and family trees. He knew as much about my family and family tree decades later. “I know more about your family than you know about your family.” He was wrong in that case, but certainly, more than 90% of my family in his knowledge of who they were and what they did. But he was able to actually site names of people decades later and remain close to several of them. So, it's amazing to look into the way he thinks of the world.
Willy Walker
So, as I was taking a look into your background, Alan, the fact that you were president of your class at AU surprised me, not that you were elected, but that you had interest in, if you will, an elected position. I've always viewed you throughout your career as this masterful advisor, somebody who can think strategically. But to a great degree other than leading your own organization, somebody who has helped people whether in the world of politics, whether in the world of business, to be the leaders that they are. When I saw that you ran and won for class president AU, I was just curious, have you ever thought about going back into politics and being out in front?
Alan Fleischmann
God, you ask great questions. Nobody ever asked me. You know, there was a time my life that my big dream job probably was to be a U.S. senator one day. When I was a young kid growing up that was my dream. I volunteered on a senate campaign when I was eleven. I've always felt that harnessing the power of civil society, public life, and private sector was something that we had to do and then turn into good. I and I always saw myself in that kind of public facing role.
But to your point along the way, whether it's because of scale and influence or impact, a part of me realized that I could do more by helping others lead, and be with them, and working with them, to find whether in private sector, public sector, and sub society to help them find their voices, and then help them amplify them. And that became a big part of my life. And it doesn't distract me from my day to day. We get caught up in ourselves. I am a CEO when I work with CEO and there's a public face in part of my life, but I do probably appreciate the parts of my life where I can quietly lead others to success and obviously be part of that success but not be distracted. But there was definitely a fork in the road at some point.
Willy Walker
And I want to know when was that?
Alan Fleischmann
I went to work with Kathleen Kennedy Townsend when she won elective office in Maryland, a start office. I was on the Foreign Affairs Committee as a staff director there. Western Hemisphere Subcommittee on the Foreign Affairs committee and I love being on the hill. And then when Kathleen won, she asked me to be a chief of staff, my home state of Maryland. I served with her. It may have been... the plentiful opportunities in those days of having too many options, but I was able to be on a bank board, have a life in public life as a chief of staff, and then creating organizations in civil society, nonprofits. And I found that the more I did and could actually get involved in those things, the more satisfied I felt about my impact. And early on, when I think I took on that job, I probably thought one day I run. But I kind of knew too much, saw too much, and realized too much, and I think at some point I realized there was the private sector and then leaders in all three sectors that was calling me.
Willy Walker
We lost her about the same time as you lost your dad. How do you deal with the loss of those two extremely close people to you? Very close to in timing when we lost Kathleen and lost your dad.
Alan Fleischmann
You mean, Maeve Townsend when we lost her daughter you mean?
Willy Walker
Her daughter, excuse me.
Alan Fleischmann
No, no, no, please. That is actually still one of the most difficult losses for me personally and obviously for Kathleen and for the Kennedy family. Enduring. It’s one of the things where she was in early 40s, one of the most talented, Maeve Kennedy Townsend, Maeve became... was one of the most talented people I've ever known. Until this day, I hear her laugh, I hear her joyfulness, her challenging status quo. She has so much of her mother in her, actually. But she was unique in her own way. She had this beautiful son, Gideon. And through freak of life, an accident that they perished the early days of Covid and on the Chesapeake Bay. And that still haunts us as a family. And we miss her terribly. If you come to my kitchen in our home, we've got pictures of her everywhere, just so we can have breakfast with her every morning. That's kind of what we say at home.
And my dad's loss, in many ways there was being in his 90s and she being so young. Both losses meant a lot, and then it taught me a little bit. I lost my mother when I was young. But no matter when you lose a loved one, old or young, the void is real, the void is long. And what we do with that and how you actually make them feel present, I think is everything. I believe in energy. I believe immortality in the sense of their presence. And I think that helps a lot.
Willy Walker
I think I saw a picture of your mom at your graduation from AU. I'm correct that she was still alive? She died in 1988, right? So, she was there on the graduation from college which had to have been a very special moment. She knew you were headed on to great things.
Alan Fleischmann
She was a force of nature. She was active in the fashion world. She's one of those people… I was just having a conversation with my older daughter about her. She's named after her. My two daughters Laura Julia and Talia. I have so much of her in them. In all the good sense of perseverance, steely-eyed focused, big personalities. Sometimes a little loud, my mother was that too. So, you kind of... all three women have that. But I would say that the thing, the thing that would be talking about, the big presence of people in our lives, the people that tell you what you don't want to hear. But know that they're doing it for you are the people we miss the most.
Willy Walker
No doubt about that. I had a conversation last night with a very influential CEO who will remain nameless, but I was giving him some feedback that I'm not so sure he really wanted to hear. But at the end of the conversation, he was very appreciative of the perspective that I gave him on some issue that he's working on right now.
Alan Fleischmann
You're known for that. I should say that you’re known as being the person in someone’s life who will challenge. What’s so wonderful is that some people challenge others, but they don't challenge themselves. When you challenge other people, you're actually challenging yourself every day as well. You've also shown in the last few years, the value of the power of being vulnerable, ensuring that as well, which I... you know, struck me deeply.
Willy Walker
Yeah, I would say it's interesting that challenging side of my personality clearly comes from my father. My father is an incredibly analytical person and is constantly asking questions. And so, if you say something to my dad, he always wants to peel the onion and get down to really what the issue is. And there's no doubt that I learned that from him. I think one of the interesting things Alan that I found, and it's similar to you having your radio show is that in doing all the research and having now 80 + conversations like this, I truly do believe that I've been a better question asker. I had a friend of mine point this out last week, where he just said the way you ask questions without being either putting people on the defensive or feeling like you're attacking them is fully different now that you've done so many of these interviews, and you can get people to talk about things that maybe previously you couldn't. And I'm certain that you found a similar type thing as you've done your prep for your Sirius Leadership Matters show.
Alan Fleischmann
It’s funny. David Rubinstein who you know well from Washington, is a great business mind, great business leader, and a great American. Great philanthropist. He's a great interviewer, the Economic Club in Washington, and then they show that he has on Bloomberg. I had him on the show and I’m actually having him again soon. He just wrote another great book called The American Experiment. I worked so hard to prepare for that show, and in a way that I hadn't for any of the other shows I did, because he was a great person to ask questions of you. And it was so rare that people ask questions of him that I wanted to get a home run. I didn't want... I couldn't be good. It had to be great. And I remember thinking that in many ways, the art of my firm, which I'm most proud of, is I always say to clients, we’ll be the ones who will come in with the right questions. We'll get the right answers. But we're not going to come in with the idea that we have the right answers walking in the door. We're not going to come in with that idea that we're going to give you the prepared power point before we talk to you. We're going to walk in the door with questions, and then we're going to think through with you what those right answers might be. And I think in life, I tell that to my girls, my daughters. In life, I think it's really about listening and someone asking you the right questions and then formulating the right strategy.
Willy Walker
So talk a little bit about the formation of Laurel Strategies because you've been at Albright Stonebridge, you were a founding principal there. You were on the management board, incredible firm. Yours and my mutual friend Michael Warren now leads the charge there. You bound out on your own. What was the reason for that? Where did that entrepreneurial bug come from Alan?
Alan Fleischmann
I think there was a restlessness in me. First of all, I should actually acknowledge truly one of the great firms, Albright Stonebridge and one of the great assemblages of talent, and the mixed talent of any firm there ever could have been. And I am so grateful and fortunate to have been able to work with people who were thirty years my senior in many cases. And then others like Michael who you mentioned, who are one of the great talents of our generation.
But there was a bug in me, whether it was cultural, meaning I needed to have my own culture or whether it was just the entrepreneur in me who needed to create and curate something. I was restless and I tried so hard to figure out other ways to fulfill that promise to me or that promise I was making to myself. I had so many people around me who said, if you build it, I will come. And I got to be a little more focused on the CEOs and the firm by its nature, knowing Madeline at the helm, for example, and Sandy Berger at that time we're very focused on the diplomacy, the corporate diplomacy, which I do too. We do it at Laurel. The government relations side, which we do, but we were really into the CEO part. And my side, in my head and the work that I was doing became clear to me that there was an opportunity and a niche to really focus on leaders in their C-suite in a way that, frankly, if you don't focus on it, it gets diluted too quickly and it doesn't work. The horizontal perspective, as well as individual P&Ls. You know well as a CEO, you're thinking holistically all the time, and you need to, and individual P&Ls. But for a lot of people, they’re in their fast, quick paced world of their own verticals -- you have to do both. And whether you know how to do a strategy, messaging, positioning, thought leadership, crisis management, the more and more I work with CEOs, the more and more I realized there was a void. The funny part is I've never blinked at the idea of starting my own firm or blinked at the idea of having many people working with me. What's it like to have a big payroll? What's it like to grow something? People always ask me that question, doesn't it make you wake up at 3:00 am? The only time that I thought about it in a fragile, vulnerable sense was with Covid. I felt like I can't get sick. There are too many people who work with me and there are too many clients I have who depend on me for me to be out even for a sick day. So, I became a little bit of a hermit during Covid where I just was a little more protective than most, probably because I was worried a little bit about others, worrying about me, worrying about them, if that makes sense. But it was a big decision to move on from Albright Stonebridge, which is a culture that I felt very strongly connected to, but the entrepreneurial bug won in the end and, I'm glad.
Willy Walker
So one of the interesting things there is that your focus was really on leadership and CEOs and the C-suite, if you will, and not necessarily on the political side and Albright Stonebridge was very much while working with companies, while working with investors, and sovereign wealth fund, and things of that nature, what I would deem is more politically oriented because of Madeleine, because of Sandy and that everything kind of similar to Carlyle as a private equity firm with its roots in DC for a long period of time as David was building it. People would say, that’s that private equity firm that focuses on the government sector, and obviously, Carlyle is now much broader. But departing from those routes, departing from the kind of the Washington establishment, and moving out to more corporate America. How did you make that transition?
Alan Fleischmann
It's amazing. First, I should say there were eight CEOs who said to me, “If you build it, I will come.” I think the day after I announced that I was leaving the firm, Albright Stonebridge to start Laurel, I looked at Dafna my wife and I said, what a dumb decision to start a firm on April 30, just as people start to go off of the summer, it's hard to travel. It's kind of like the check is in the mail. They're not going to be there. And it turned out, though that I was wrong. Thank goodness. And all eight of those CEOs became clients within twelve days and joined the firm. And we had to build from really, I never got to be the guy who eat pizza on the floor of the garage. Startup...
Willy Walker
Guy Raz will never have you on his show, because the theme of Guy Raz on How I Built This is that you have to be a struggling entrepreneur in the garage with the pizza boxes on the floor and almost lose everything before you like hit it big to get on his show. And I've talked to him about it, and he says, that's my theme, Willy. That's the way that these things work. You can't have started something like Laurel Strategies and watch it just keep on going up. You have to have had that major crisis moment to get on How I Built This. So unfortunately, he's never going to have you on the show.
Alan Fleischmann
I won't be on the show then. But I will say the one thing though, I didn't have the infrastructure built yet. I didn't have the people hired yet. So, it was really amazing how many people came forward and said, almost like volunteers. Like I'll be there if you create your own assembly line of infrastructure. And how many people said I'll help You. And I’m indebted to those people who gave me their time, their energy, their insight, and their incredible capacity in the early days of Laurel. And then we pulled together the greatest team in the world. I'm so grateful for the people I work with. We had a holiday lunch just the last week, probably the last moment, where we all could be together again before everybody shutting down once again. Everyone got tested that day, and we came in and we sat around Le Diplomat the restaurant you know well in Washington. And I had to look around the room and to see in the eyes of so many talented people how lucky I am. And people who are all-in, devoted, who understand the power of what we do and understand the vulnerability of what we do as well, meaning that we are there when our clients need us most, and sometimes it's very lonely for them. And we worry. We're a bunch of worriers and warriors of Laurel. But it's wonderful.
Willy Walker
So as I hear you say that Alan and I thought about this as I was doing my homework on you, why do people work with you? Not Laurel, you.
Alan Fleischmann
Wow, you ask great questions. I don't know the answer except I would say I'm all-in and surrounded by people are all-in. We don't make promises we don't deliver. I think our rate of success return is 99.9%. We envisioned together. We will be there to both preemptive, be proactive, to be responsive and reactive, in ways that I think isn't normal. It isn't the usual way. We're very quick. We don't believe good is good enough, but I would say I care. I get connected to the people in a way that they know that I understand them. I will push them in ways in which they are uncomfortable sometimes, but I also will protect. I mean the carrying aspect of this goes very far. That worrier/warrior is much just a bunch of words to me. I really do. We advance, but we also do care. We protect. We believe reputation matters. Nowadays it always has, but nowadays there are so many opportunities to really bring down people too quickly in ways you don't really have the chance to defend yourself. So, we do a lot of work to really kind of create that really authentic DNA of an organization and someone's reputation. So, people really know who they are. So that they can withstand the bad times. There always are challenging times, but also to advance in good times and we're there, there as well. So, I think it's because we care, and I care. I don't know the answer. I still think about that a little more.
Willy Walker
Let me try and push a little bit harder on that because there are a lot of organizations that care. There are also a lot of organizations that work really hard. There are also a lot of organizations that are quick. Is there...is there something... you had eight CEOs you said that if you put out your own shingle that they'd come with you. So, what was it that you'd done previously for them? Whether it was some anecdote on a crisis management where you helped some company get through an extremely difficult time? What was it on the launch of a of a new product or strategy that was done exceptionally well? That one CEO said to another CEO if you want someone who's really good on this, you need to work with Alan.
Alan Fleischmann
That clearly is the case today where I feel the greatest business development for us is from others who worked with us. Some of our greatest champions are current clients who tell future clients, you got to work with my team, or you got to know Laurel. We're very much in the confidentiality. When people say, what do you do for a living? I say, I’m indispensable and devotion business. You know, we're, at the end of the day, that's what we do. I do think the quickest and quality matters a lot. This is a great question you’re asking. I think the real essence of why people want to work with us is because we will know you and we will help you know yourself even better today than you may have known yourself yesterday and help you dream big and make sure we reach those dreams. And it's real.
Like we do a whole stakeholder mapping session when the clients come on board, where we envision, not only the world they live in today, and to help them manage their stakeholders. But imagine that the stakeholders of tomorrow. And how do we actually elegantly non-self promotionally really transition to that. So, it's transformational rather than transactional. I say these words really deliberately. Because at the end of the day, we live in a world where people are always look like they're promoting or they're doing. Some people are still doing that. I would say at Laurel were very good at reaching goals, always, but do it in a very organic and natural way. And I think helping people find their voice and hear their voice and have impact is what we do. And we're not satisfied until we really, really know you.
Willy Walker
Yeah. That's really interesting. It sounds almost trite to know your customer, but clearly in your work and how you all have been successful you really do differentiate on understanding your customer. What’s so fascinating to me is that most of the customers you work with don't necessarily want people to know them. So, there's not…one of the main reasons they work with you. One of the reasons you're so discrete about your work is because you're working with billionaires and world leaders and people have really, really big personas. So that's got to be somewhat difficult because you've gotten yourself in with these people who want to make sure that the messaging they're putting out is very consistent and very excellent. You have to get to know them, but to just get to know them is often a big challenge.
Alan Fleischmann
It's interesting. A lot of the folks you work with were unknown when we started. So, they've accomplished or they're accomplishing great things, or they have recently accomplished great things. But luckily, that narrative about them hasn't been written yet. So, let's not let someone write it for them, but let them write it for themselves or they reach the level of success. But they realize and we realize you’re not yet a household name therefore, we got to make sure that the word of the organization and the word of the reputation of the CEO and the leadership team is really understood. And then there are those who come along our way, shockingly, you know them well, you’ve heard of them well. We work with them, but they don't trust. I guess that's where we haven’t gotten to in this interview yet, but the word trust matters. And I think that probably is the answer to your earlier question. Why do you want to work with us? At the end of the day, I always joke that I want to be known for being loyal and trustworthy. And I think that's true, of single solitary person at Laurel Strategies, it's all about honoring that trust. And I think it could be a very well-known celebrity and feel like you've been robbed along the way reputationally. And you can be a very well-known leader or CEO and feel like you're not understood. And you could be someone that knows that you're going to be well known any day now or soon enough and I want to make sure that it's handled appropriately with a great deal of care and detail. You are the most detail-oriented person I know, Willy. I like to say that I'm the second most detail-oriented person I know.
Willy Walker
I want to focus for a moment, you have a big role in Forbes magazine list of their CEO awards. And I want to focus on 2020 for a second, Alan, because I know you had a lot to do with who got on that list. So therefore, you looked at a lot of leadership traits that emerged in 2020. And 2020 will be a year that it defied simple descriptions. It was a year that was so challenging. It had moments during the pandemic that drove incredible innovation across medicine and industry. A lot of different trends emerge that we're still living with today like work from home. As you look back on that and the leaders that you and Forbes decided to put on that list, what were the key components, if you will, that those leaders exhibited during the pandemic, during such a challenging year of 2020, that that those of us who weren't on the list might learn something from?
Alan Fleischmann
There are many... one of the great gifts of life, as I get to work with some extraordinary people --clients I'm talking about. And so many of our clients stepped up in ways that actually inspired me too. his idea that, there’s this great quote, “your personality is how you respond to a typical day and your character is how you respond to a challenging day.” I think that our clients, in every way, are the leaders you read about, are the ones who got up during the aftermath of George Floyd, or were the ones who said we're not going to lay off people in the early days of the pandemic and we're employee first The ones who actually joined forces to make sure that access to opportunity and became a paramount priority to them and their organizations or businesses that they run, whether they're small ventures and startups or major organizations and businesses of our time.
One person I'll mention, I don't talk about clients much, as you know. But one I would mention because it became the inspiration to me personally, but also the inspiration to so many were clients is Albert Bourla, who's the CEO of Pfizer. To be there in the earliest days of the pandemic and to watch a man who wasn't known; Forbes actually did an early first story about him and became a cover story. But it was the first profile of this Greek American who came over, whose career was at Pfizer, who is a Dr. Bourla, who really believe the science wins. Who understood that he had to transform a controversial industry, not only a company who is known for drug making and remind people that at their core, they're really about science. And the scientists that you meet at Pfizer inspire you in ways that, frankly, blow you away. He actually came out in March of 2020 and against everyone's advice, said that we're going to have a vaccine this year. There wasn't a scientist at any company at any bio lab, even a BioNTech, which partner with Pfizer, who thought it was possible to do it within the year. This is a guy who was a Greek Jew who came to this country, who was the son of the Holocaust. He lost members of his family, who really to his core believes that every life matters. And to him, every day that someone got Covid and died was one day that we could not let happen. So, he knew like kind of JFK with the moon shot. He said, if I don't say it will never happen, and people said it will take three years, five years, eight years, twelve years, depending on who you talk to. But nobody said one year, nobody said within a year, but he did. And then he also believed in collaboration, investing in bio labs, working with others, breaking down barriers in a very competitive industry. That kind of character, that kind of leadership allowed me then to go to other CEOs and say, I believe, too, that we're going to have a vaccine this year.
Then I learned a lot about mRNA technology with the idea that if there's ever a variant, we're going to be able to adapt to it. There's going to be anti-viral drugs that will let you live a life of normalcy. And that does feed into a CEO whether or not he or she leads with a certain amount of confidence or, whether they have to kind of contract. But knowing the science around the pandemic allowed me to advise so many others and to watch him just be the CEO that he is still one of the greatest inspirations of my life.
Willy Walker
So I think that article in 2020[sic] and Forbes was titled The Rise Of The Global Statesperson Boss[sic], so as those of us who don't run global organizations, but do have, to some degree influence that goes beyond the borders of the United States. What do leaders need to think about during this coming decade, if 2020 was the advent of the global statesperson boss.
Alan Fleischmann
As I've been reading a lot about CEO statesmanship, as you mentioned earlier, and well before anyone was really thinking about it. I realized that the public sector, which is partly why my journey went private sector in civil society, the public sector wasn't able to do the kind of transformational leadership that you and I thought of when we were growing up and the heroes that we had from the Washington that you and I knew, they just weren't as many. There's some that are there. Trust me. There's some great US senators and members of congress that I admire greatly. There’re certainly people who serve in our administrations that are there for all the right reasons, but to have major impact, the private sector, CEO in particular, became more and more important. And the qualities in which they needed and the risk that they needed to take on became even more important. Part of that's because the employees, part of this, because the customer is, part of this because of the investors, they expect that it's a generational shift as well.
But we were seeing more and more of that CEO statesmanship. The global part, another person I could mention is... he was eternally young, someone have the great fortune of working with is an 87-year-old man named Klaus Schwab, who's the founder and executive chairman of the World Economic Forum. This is a guy who during 2020, 2021, went virtual. Davos is known as being the great gathering. They just postponed it again because of this new variant. But he managed to become relevant in days. He pulled people together and what we learned in 2020 and 2021 is something that you and I first understood but it became much clearer is that whether we're dealing with George Floyd aftermath issues in this country around racism and the lack of diversity for the important of creating inclusive capitalism. We learned that it wasn't just an American phenomenon. It was a phenomenon that actually exists in most countries around the world.
And what we were dealing with here were beacons and lessons and opportunities and models of struggle that they needed to deal with there, wherever there was. And he was able to with this great convening power and catalytic power at the Forum was to have conversations, uncomfortable conversations, and create the best and brightest people to come together with really tight and urgent goals. We were able to be there with him and work with him. We've got many clients that are working with him in ways that we really believe we can advance things and the global part of that matters. That the role of the CEO he wrote about it when he was a young man in his earliest years as a professor, he wrote about what really is about stakeholder capitalism, and just capital as a thesis PhD and that became what burst the World Economic Forum in Davos. He’s still true today, more relevant today than ever.
Another person who is, another person in her 80s, you mentioned her too, Jane Goodall. This is a woman who normally in good times travels 300 days of the year. She's everywhere. At her home, world is that how do we deal with the big challenges of economic, environmental, social... But how do we actually bring home solutions and real activism to finding those solutions urgently. And she's as devoted as ever. So, when you look at young people, old people, globally, we're all looking for answers and we're all looking for hope. And we're all looking for an urgent solution to some of our biggest challenges. And my firm gets to be at the middle of a lot of that and to help bring people together. And that's where magic is found.
Willy Walker
When I think about the global statesperson boss, another person who comes to mind is Bob Iger, who is just stepping down right now as chairman of Disney after an incredible run as chairman and CEO. I know you had Bob on your radio show a couple weeks ago. And we both read his book Ride of a Lifetime. What did you learn in your discussion with Bob that either amplified something you’d taken from the book or something that wasn't in the book that you thought was really interesting?
Alan Fleischmann
That's a great question. I think he's one of the most extraordinary people of our time. And I would say one of these that strikes me about him, insatiable curiosity, always learning, always wanting to... whether it's about meeting the next person or discovering the next answer. But it's also humility. He is confident, but he has such a great, wonderful, grateful side of him. And that seems to bring about what is clearly humility.
So many people write these books. You know many of them, too. And several of them, and they're just heavy with cockiness or arrogance or a lack of humility. You read his books and you learn, but you're learning through his incredible success. Some of the most challenging times he experienced and how he interpreted them and then kind of got back up and moved forward. And you took that book and you read about his life, and you really like him. Because he shows that vulnerability, he shares that humility in a very genuine way. He's...I'm sad when certain people like him retire. He won't stop doing what he's doing, but he is truly a CEO statesman.
Willy Walker
It's really interesting. I wrote Bob a note and said to him that Ride of a Lifetime is a great and appropriate title for his book. But I actually wrote him and said, I would suggest that the title should have been Legacy Keeper. And the reason that I find Bob so interesting as being a legacy keeper is that he convinced Steve Jobs to sell him his legacy in Pixar. He convinced Steven Spiel sell him, Lucas. Not Steven Spielberg, excuse me, George Lucas, to sell him Lucas films and his legacy. And he even convinced Rupert Murdoch to sell him FOX. And as I was reading about all these multi billionaire founders of all the things that was important to them, it was the legacy of what they had built. There's something very unique in Bob from his character that made it so that those incredibly talented people felt that their legacy would be safe and carried on inside of Disney under Bob's leadership.
And that, as I think about all the skill sets that would define Bob, that seems to me to be the success of the last seventeen years as he ran the firm. And to convince those people to do that, there's some real gift there that he has, as it relates to meeting with… and he talks about it, as you well known in the book at great length about how he convinced Steve to sell Pixar and how he then approached Lucas. But it's just fascinating these people thought that selling their companies to him was the right thing for them to do.
Alan Fleischmann
It's really so true. You know, it goes back to the thing we talked earlier about trust, and people to people, the idea of relationships matter. One of my board members is a great statesman, who is one of my great mentors in my life. A guy named Morris Offit. He had Offit Bank and then Offit Capital, and he's just an extraordinary man young in his 80s as well. He taught me in my 20s that when someone leaves your office, take them down the elevator, walk them to your lobby. He said, that's your home, that's your office home. First of all, it's a great sign of respect. Second of all, as people start to reflect on the meeting they just had, they often want to question what they just agreed to. At the end of the day, we're all about people. We're on the relationship business. And if you don't forget that trust where the person leaves knowing that they've given whatever they've given up to a person who's going to treat that trust with a certain sacred bond, you're not going to be, things will unravel. It won't advance. I kind of think of Bob Iger that way. Bob Iger believes every person… you go through anything in this book, or you see the master class he does, and everything's about the human being. That meeting, that negotiation that developing that kind of across the table trust that is loud, even the adversaries of the past become his friends of the future. And I think that's just says a lot about who he is as a leader and why he is special. The trust matters.
Willy Walker
You talked about Morris on your board. I'm curious you sit on a ton of boards. You also have a fantastic board at Laurel. I'll pick two friends of yours and mine. I don't need you to critique them, but I want to get a sense of what you look for in board members. So, I look at someone like David Bradley, who is an amazing entrepreneur, wildly successful in the business world, widely philanthropic with his time and his money. And then I look at someone like Dane Butswinkas, one of the best lawyers you or I will ever know, a fantastic litigator at Williams & Connolly. They both sit on your board. Why those skill sets, and if you will, just to compare and contrast a little bit here, we don't have to take David and Dane and give them a 360 live on this webcast but I'm just curious as you put together boards because you sit on so many. What are you looking for? That says to you someone like David or someone like Dane is an exceptional board member?
Alan Fleischmann
That's a great question. I would say for me, I'm in the advice-giving business If you know what I mean, and whether it's professionally or personally. I expect and I'm expected to kind of tell you, what do you think Alan? And what do you think we should do Alan? And it is a wonderful gift to me that I have a board where they get the benefit of my advice to them, because I won't hold back about their lives. But I am so grateful to have them on my board who are always willing to give me advice. And you pick two of several great people on my board who are just wonderful at giving you advice. Not what, as you not talked about by you, not always wanting to give you the advice you want to hear, but the advice you need to consider.
And David and Dane both are people who are known for saying don't do something. I was in a situation several years ago where I was able to... I would have won a lawsuit couple of times where I would have won the lawsuit. It would have been an easy lawsuit to have had. I remember exactly where I was when Dane called me. He's a great litigator. And he called me in the phone. He said to me if this were any other person, I would say sue. And I would be there with you, and I will be there with you if you decide to do it in this case. But Alan, I know you. And I know that you do not want to be distracted. And my advice to you and I know you're getting advice from everybody around that says you should pursue that lawsuit. And it was a personal day, I was in a car accident. And he said, don't do it, don't do it. You don't need it. You don't want it. And it's not worth it. While I would enjoy it as your lawyer, I would not enjoy watching you do something you don't want to do. It was as if he found my voice, he heard my words that I hadn't articulated in my own head. That's the kind of lawyer he is. He's an incredible friend and a great advisor where he will look at what's in the best interest of you. And he's only the winner that he is, he only wins. When he does something he only wins there's no grey for him. I am going to do it, we're going to do it, we're going to win, which I also admire.
David Bradley is one of the most thoughtful renaissance men I've ever known. He could do anything I feel like. He is the example of confidence with humility. If you want him to be in your life, you are so lucky to have him in your life. But he'll never jump in unless you're in an urgent situation. And he sees you falling off that cliff and no one’s watching. He doesn’t want to invite himself in unless he wants to be there. But when he’s there, he’s all in. And I had wonderful sessions with him where he literally gave me his time, one day after another, literally, every evening for a week, in order to help me think through things and some of the simplest things that just seems so simple when he said it, were so complex before he stated it. I've gotten from David, things like you know what, don’t listen to that, Do that. That's your gut. Helping you figure out your own voice is really, really wonderful. So, wonderful to have them on my board. I believe in being a good board member, I consider being a good board member everything.
Willy Walker
Well, yeah you sit on so many I don't see how you have the time for it all, but that's a whole different story. I'm sure you're a fantastic board member and wildly insightful. And I'm also sure that you pull from the learning that you have on one board over the other. So, on that, let me go for a moment to sitting on the board of Morehouse college.
What an incredible organization to sit on the board of, particularly right now. Robert Smith shows up at graduation, 2019, gives us incredible speech. And in the speech he says, I'm going to write a check for $34 million and take care of everyone’s student debt in the class of 2019. Stunning. I know you were involved in all of that and just an incredible act of generosity and also underscored the issue of student debt. I'm not personally a proponent of eliminating all student debt out there. I think those people who paid off their student debt like me, there's a reason we took time and money to make money to pay off our student debt. So just coming up like Elizabeth Warren says, letting go of the trillions of dollars outstanding. I'm not an advocate of, but I also thought that Robert Smith’s gift to Morehouse and what that gift to those students was to come out without that burden was incredible.
And then this past year, when Reed Hastings and his wife Patty gave an enormous gift to both Morehouse as well as Spelman, someone who hadn't gone to the university, but saw the issue as it relates to education, how important education is to racial justice and racial diversity in America and making such an enormous $120 million gift to go to both Spelman and Morehouse in what is the United College Negro...
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, UNCF
Willy Walker
So talk for a moment, Alan because you've been very involved with all of that sitting on the board of Morehouse, about how those gifts and how historically black colleges and universities are dealing with being in the spotlight right now, because not only are they the beneficiaries of all this, but there's also increased expectations that they are going to create the men and women leaders of tomorrow.
Alan Fleischmann
It's a great question. I would say one of the great honors of my life is to be on that board, Morehouse college. And I just mentioned a quick thing. One of my great moments in life was to be on the stage as a trustee in cap and gown when Robert Smith made that announcement about eliminating the debt of that class. And he said more than that, he didn't just eliminate that debt. He actually has worked with all of the HBCUs, historically black colleges and universities to tackle the debt issues and find ways to finance in a way that will eliminate or minimize the burden of debt in a way that advances you by having kind of pay it forward. Those who actually who are involved before it can actually help those who follow. And he's created student freedom initiative that has been pretty powerful.
But to be on that stage and to hear that it struck me as a Morehouse man, a trustee, but also as someone who understands what it feels like to look in the eyes of young people and to see that liberation than knowing that I can dream that I can be anything. I would say from the first moment, I went on the campus of Morehouse, I was struck by something very important. And that is they teach and have taught young men to be leaders first and foremost. Forget whether you're there for science or there for the humanities, or there for economic degree, it's to lead. And the way young students there approach you when you come on campus and we should get you there, Willy. It is so extraordinary, so exceptional. It's true that in the last year and half since this reawakening around systemic racism in our country, the philanthropic focus on HBCUs has become intensified. It's become a real priority. It's been wonderful to see, it's well deserved. When you talked about the UNCF, Dr. Michael Lomax is the head of that. He's one of these great leaders of our time. At Morehouse, Dave Thomas, he was at Georgetown for many years you probably knew him then.
Willy Walker
You had him on your show recently. You know him well, you sat with them. What did he say on your radio show that surprised you?
Alan Fleischmann
He doesn't want people to give as a check in a box of racial diversity. He wants people to give because they understand the marvel and the exception of one individual, and understand that when you invest in one, you invest in the world. He knows that and, he's impressed. He knows that Morehouse and Spelman and so many other colleges that he's been involved in, but certainly Morehouse is deserving of your investment. I think you've had Wayne Frederick, if I’m not mistaken, who's a great friend from Howard. What he's doing, and Howard is also pretty extraordinary. And I think what this did is this last eighteen months has allowed people to understand that if you really want to create the kind of capitalism, the kind of society that we all need to imagine and realize. We really have to be investing in the next generation. And I think Dave Thomas will challenge you to put your money where your mouth is, but also not to write a check only, but partner with me. In other words, if you have some ingenuity, experience, opportunity, pipelines of talent, that you can bring forth, in addition to your resources financially, I want that too.
I think that's the thing that we don't always realize you as a philanthropist know that it's not just the check-writing that matters. It does. It's the partnership that matters if you stay in the enduring part, in which you work. A lot of what we do with our clients, as we not only help them find the ways to give. We really work hard to make sure that is realized and enduring for many years to come. And that it's not just a transactional moment, but a transformational moment.
And I would say that the Wayne Frederick’s of the world, the Dave Thomas’ of the world, the Michael Lomax’s of the world, who are the front lines of trying to fight for this kind of diversity and inclusivity we seek in this country. They want the partnerships as much as the money.
Willy Walker
If you think about Just Capital, you were one of the co-founders of JUST Capital in 2013, some incredible co-founders and of Tudor Jones, Deepak Chopra, Arianna Huffington, a bunch of other people. JUST Capital just came out with a partnership with CNBC to basically rank companies on their ESG and DE&I achievements. There's obviously plenty of controversy around people like Larry Fink, saying that Blackrock wants to focus on these metrics and invest in companies like this. You listen to Squawk Box any given morning when this topic comes up and half the people are saying, awesome, this is great. It's just what CEOs and companies ought to be doing. And then there's a whole other side to it typically led by Joe saying companies ought to make money for shareholders, and that's it. It begins and ends with that. And that's what they ought to really focus on. But one of the things that I found very interesting, and I was excited about, Alan, is that the approach from JUST Capital is really to use metrics to quantify these issues, and to not just use subjective measures to say you're a really good corporate citizen or whatever else, but to create definable outcomes that companies and CEOs can drive for, to be on that list and to be mentioned as one of the truly great companies that understands really the partnership between making money and being a good corporate citizen. Talk a little bit about how you came up with that at JUST Capital.
Alan Fleischmann
Sure, one of the things I was struck by was when they were the moments before this webcast started you were showing, I guess quotes from other prior webcasts or conversations and one, I don't remember exactly what it said, but it struck me in the way that JUST Capital does, John Rice who we’re both friends with. He's on your board as well if I am not mistaken. He said something about how we want to pull them in, not put them out. There was a better quote than I'm giving justice to his quote, but that's very much of the core of JUST Capital. How do we draw in through metrics and standards, a common place for us to work with to bring in companies and bring in their leadership in order to see themselves as being part of the solution rather than part of the problem?
And not just blast them by saying you're not doing well. But to work with these big companies in particular and bring them in to do better. And the CEOs who want to do better that you really want to advance. Who understand that it's either the way they lead and the way they participate in the community, or the products that they produce are good for the climate, are good for culture, are just good for society. We want them to advance, and we want them to figure out the best ways to transform and transition. And I think JUST Capital understood also something that we needed to understand well before it became as widely understood today, that is Main Street isn't just the regular customer, but a very demanding customer who has choices. They also include their neighbors who are the analysts and the investors and the employees. They're going to say and demand that the companies that they work with are the companies are going to do right by us. So, Wall Street needs to meet Main Street, and we have to create the common language, the right language, the right metrics in which they can see where we are, where we're going, in a way that actually shows progress. So, we rank them. But it’s not ranking you with the idea that we want you to be on the other side and ridiculed or ostracized. It really is to find a way to bring you in and to find ways in which the JUST team can work with you in order to advance for better good and greater good. Not in an idealistic only way, but in a pragmatic way. Paul Tudor Jones, who really is the active chairman, he doesn't know how to do anything that's not pragmatic. He might be an idealist, but he's gotta move quick. And we have to advance. And this was the imagination and vision of Deepak Chopra who realized that there was something there that their capitalism needs to be Just. We have to embrace a better capitalism, and that there's a real interest, demand, and opportunity, and then we all came for together.
Willy Walker
So, my final question to you, Alan, because we're running out of time here. And I could obviously keep on going with you for a long time. You were involved with the Fortune magazine poll that was taken on CEOs back in June of this year, in conjunction with Deloitte. And in that survey of CEOs, one of the interesting one was the 52% of CEOs thought we would be beyond the pandemic by the end of 2021. So those 52% are clearly wrong. Yet, I think there's still is 77% of them thought that the economy in 2022 would be very, very strong. But the one that I wanted to ask you about was asked in an open-ended question to name the biggest challenge they face. The CEOs mentioned talent more than anything else. As you work with your CEOs, given what's going on in the world, what are you advising your clients to do as it relates to both maintaining and attracting new talent in this new world that we live in of open one day, shut the next day, at the office one day, at home the next day?
And then also the great resignation that we see taking place where people are making life decisions that we've never seen them make before, to just say, you know what? Like my job, but I'd rather be doing X and they just up and go. What do you focused on as it relates to the companies that you're working with to be able to maintain and attract new talent?
Alan Fleischmann
Yeah, that is that magic word that we're finding at this last hour, which is the word trust. The only way they can actually establish trust in their own internal culture is to speak with certainty about the uncertainty and to show humility. Because the CEOs that had come out and said, we're going to be back to the office by now, or we're going to do this then, have had a kind of retreat. The CEOs who say, we're going to figure this out together. There's a lot of uncertainty. But the one thing that I will tell you that I'm absolutely committed to is you and us, and what we're building together. They're the ones that are doing the best internally morale wise. So, they are the ones that people are wanting to stick by and stick with. And I know the great resignation baffles me in so many ways because I think some of the young people in particular who are quitting to move on, probably are making a mistake long term in some cases. And I worry about them. That's a different conversation that we can have, you know, with the strategic impact of your life.
But the ones who are saying I don't want to resign. I want to stick to this are the ones who really believe that the helm and the understanding of the helm that they got a leader, he or she, who are articulating with great confidence that we will navigate fine during these uncertain times and to embrace the fact that there are a lot of unknowns still and there always were. It just happens to be right now. It's a lot more of a roller coaster ride than expected. But look at how well so many companies have done and adapting. There's a lot of challenges of being worked from home, which you need to embrace and accept. And every person has a different circumstance, but there's been a lot of really wonderful ways in which CEOs have now communicated with their employees that they never would have done pre-pandemic. They never would have access. Even what you're doing with your webcast and what you're doing with the way you communicate across your company. I'm sure there are things you are doing that allowed you to communicate in much more personable and intimate and direct way through technology in some cases that allowed you to be better known than you were even before. And I think that's been wonderful. I think the challenge is people want to work together. They want to be back in the office more. I think that will come. There's an antiviral pill that will be available soon and between vaccines...
Willy Walker
Made by one of your clients.
Alan Fleischmann
Between the anti-viral pill and the vaccine, I think there will be a level of certainty that will be having some form of normalcy in the not-too-distant future very soon. But I think I'm watching these leaders lead with confidence, but humility and a level of understanding that these are uncertain time is the trick. And that's the answer because it's authentic.
Willy Walker
It's super insightful and helpful. I have loved spending this hour with you. I will tell you that as much as I've enjoyed the last hour, you and I finding each other in New York City, three weeks ago and, finding two chairs in the middle of the hotel lobby, that was packed to be able to sit there and talk to another face to face. There is nothing like that face-to-face interaction. But this is a very, very good second.
Thank you, Alan. And happy holidays to you and your family. Greatly appreciate you taking the time and joining me.
To everybody who is listening today, thank you for joining us. We will be back early in the new year with an incredible lineup of people, including David Rubinstein, who Alan and I guess are going to share sometime early in the New Year. My friend, Jim Courier, the tennis player, Brad Gerstner, the hedge fund, owner operator of Altimeter Capital and a bunch of other people. So very much looking forward to future discussions next year.
Alan, thank you again. Happy holidays to you and your girls and to Dafna. And we'll talk to you soon.
Alan Fleischmann
Much love to Sheila and the boys. Thank you so much.
Willy Walker
Thank you, bye.
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