Webcast transcript:
Willy Walker: Welcome everyone to another Walker Webcast. We are recording this on a Tuesday for replay on a Wednesday because my guest today is on the other side of the world covering the Australian Open. Jim Courier, let me do a quick bio on you, J.C., and then we'll dive into my questions for you.
James Spencer Courier born August 17, 1970, is a former number one world tennis player. He won four major titles, two at the French Open and two at the Australian Open. He was the youngest man to reach the finals of all four grand slam singles tournaments at 22 years and 11 months old. He also won five Masters 1000 series titles and 23 career titles. Since 2005, he has worked as a tennis commentator. He is notably the host broadcaster of the Australian Open and an analyst for the Tennis Channel. He is also the founder and CEO of Inside Out Sports, which, among other things, puts on the annual Champions Tour. Before I dive into my discussion with Jim, I need to give a quick shout out to “the dudes” Millzie, Bert, Bobby, C, Johnny, Mac, and Jaybird, along with Jace, Obi and JB, who have all been wonderful friends to Jim and me over the years and play a large role in both of our lives. OK, J.C, how's Australia?
Jim Courier: Well, first of all, greetings from Wednesday. I'm your time traveling companion here. It's already Wednesday morning where I am, so it's about 10:00 in the morning here. I'm in Melbourne, and it's beautiful here, as it always is this time of the year. I would say it's bizarre Wills, the streets of Melbourne. This time last year, when we were here, there was no COVID in Australia. We all to go quarantine for 14 days, and then we could come out, and things were relatively normal. No masks, everyone was liven and the restaurants were full. People were in offices. It's a ghost town now that they've moved to live with COVID policy instead of a zero COVID policy. So, it's very strange. It's really weird to be here. Melbourne is a big, big metropolitan city, and it's like a public holiday every day here. It's really, really strange. But tennis is sort of a bright spot for the Australians and certainly for me.
Willy Walker: I can't talk about COVID in the Australian Open without getting your take on the Novak Djokovic saga. It's now over. You were right there watching it all unfold. Everyone seems to be wanting to find somebody to blame on this thing. I think it's just a super unfortunate situation about him heading down there and then getting turned away. But what's the take on the ground down there?
Jim Courier: Yeah. Look, I think everyone understands that he's made a conscious decision not to get vaccinated, and everyone has that right – their body, their choice. But it's not without consequences. He's now seeing that the consequences may not just be here in Australia because Paris and Roland-Garros, which is the next major, they've just announced that vaccinations will be required to be in the stadium for both players and fans. So, you know, this will be a rolling issue for him if he chooses to continue to be unvaccinated, which would be a shame. But again, his body, his choice, not without consequences. So, we start with that.
Then we move forward. In November The Australian Sports Ministry and the people in the state of Victoria announced that there they were going to be no exceptions had to be vaxxed to play, and then they opened a side door for medical exemptions. And we understand that those are meant for people who have problems with the vaccine that they might have allergies to or various issues like that. But there is another side door that got opened up that Novak was able to exploit, at least temporarily, and that was to get in if he'd had COVID in the last six months. He got COVID on December 16, which is very late, and that allowed him to be given this medical exemption. So, look, that should have never happened. You know that medical exemption should have only been for people who have allergy issues or some sort of serious medical condition that would prevent them from having COVID. So, we start with that. That's a mistake that was made by the government.
Tennis Australia, here's the way I see it. Novak did what he could do within the rules to come to play. His motives were always clear. He wanted to play. He would use the rules to his advantage if he could get in. He did that. He was given a visa. He was given a medical exemption. He doesn't get to create those. He doesn't get to decide on those. He just applies for those. So, I'm not sure we can blame him for getting on the plan. Our friend Craig Tiley, the Tennis Australia CEO, his job is to try and help the players and get them in to run the tournament. And he did what he was supposed to do as far as making things available for all of the players, not just Novak. Two other people among the playing group were given that same medical exemption, and they both got into the country without a problem. In fact, one of them played a tournament the week prior to Novak being stopped. She has since left the country once this whole thing blew up.
So that leaves us with the government and the state government here in Victoria and the federal government. You know, they're the ones who get to make the rules and border controls controlled by the federal government. So ultimately, for me, this is probably the left hand not talking to the right hand at the government level. And there certainly needs to be some accountability for this. Maybe I'm conflicted because I'm from the playing group and the tournament side, and I'm not a government official. But for the life of me, I cannot see how anyone, but the government is to blame for their borders. So that's where I sit on it. It's been awful, been terrible for the tournament. And of course, it could have all been avoided if Novak had gotten vaccinated. But you know, again, that's not something he seems to want to do. What's your take on it?
Willy Walker: If you were a betting man, would you think he plays the French?
Jim Courier: Thankfully, I'm not a betting man. That's a tough call. You know, effectively in the short term, he's doing serious harm to his legacy if he cannot play. Right? Because he is the dominant player still today, he has a chance to add to his already sparkling credentials. If he chooses to die on the vine on this issue, it's going to be a remarkable story in the rearview mirror happening in real-time. And one thing we know about Novak, he's incredibly, incredibly determined, and dogged, and he is a fighter, especially when he has his back up against the wall. He loves to play against a big crowd. This is a pretty big crowd of people who want him vaccinated out there in the world, so it's a tough one. I'd say it's a coin flip; honestly, you know, but things could change. But maybe we move from a pandemic to an endemic, and then borders open up, and people aren't as concerned about unvaccinated participants. We'll see.
Willy Walker: Do you think with Novak out, Jim, that if either Roger or Rafa win either in Australia or this coming summer, there's an asterisk next to them, becoming the all-time grand slam winner with him being out of the picture? Or do you think it's viewed as that's it? They’re number one.
Jim Courier: Yeah, look, I think short term, some people might attribute an asterisk to it, but players miss tournaments all the time. Roger's not here because of his knees. He's had four surgeries on it. Rafa has missed many majors because of injury. So, in the big view, when you pull back from the frame and look at their careers in their totality, I think this will be a blip as far as how their achievements are viewed. It's not going to be a blip a far as how Novak is viewed, this will be a part of his biography for the rest of his life. This is a massive international story, but I think it's not an asterisk as far as I'm concerned, because players missed tournaments all the time.
Willy Walker: And when you think about those three in comparison to all the other great tennis players of all time, who's the goat?
Jim Courier: Well, on our statistics alone, Novak has a clear edge. He's tied with them with the metric that many people consider the most important. As you pointed out, the majors all have 20 at the moment. But if you dive a little deeper, he has a head-to-head winning record against both Roger and Rafa. He's won all four of the majors at least twice. None of them has done that yet. He has the most weeks at number one, which is really important. He has the most year-end number ones. He just got past Sampras. He's at seven, and Sampras is at six. So, you know, I look at all of the metrics relevant in black and white that are not emotion-based. And there's no doubt that if everything stopped today, he's the best. He's had the best career. But some people get emotional, understandably, because they're passionate about these athletes. And you know, people will make a hard case for the overall picture. And some people will put this thing down here in Australia as a negative when you consider that I've already seen that argument made by fellow players, retired players. So, look, I'm much more black and white, and I try to take the emotion out of this discussion, but I know many people can't.
Willy Walker: On that same question related to the women, is it fair to say that Serena Williams has surpassed Martina Navratilova and Steffie Graf as the “greatest female player of all time”?
Jim Courier: Yeah, I think that's fair. And you look, I think Margaret Court has the all-time majors record, male or female with 24, but you have to factor in that she won a lot of those in the Australian Open when it wasn't well-attended. I think you have to look at the Open Era. And from that standpoint, you give Serena the edge over Steffie, and Steffie had 22 majors. Martina and Chrissie had 18 each playing at the same time. That's the sort of the canon of the greatest female players of the Open Era, and I think that's kind of the best way to look at it. I'm hoping Serena can get back out like Roger, we haven't seen much of her lately. I hope that her health will allow her to get back out and keep pursuing her on-court dream. Well, you know, she's an entrepreneur. She's got a lot going on off-court too. We'll hear a lot from Serena for the rest of her life outside the lines, but I'm hoping she gets back in there before too long.
Willy Walker: Speaking about outside the lines, I assume you've seen the movie “King Richard”.
Jim Courier: I have.
Willy Walker: What do you think about it?
Jim Courier: I thought it was great. First of all, it's really, really difficult for tennis to be portrayed well on screen, just as far as that actual shot-making. So that part was really, really well-executed. And I love the storyline. I love that they ended the story at the beginning of their careers. I mean, that's such an interesting way to present their unbelievable story. Will Smith was amazing as Richard, we all know Richard within the sport he is a real character, a really bright guy who had a vision, and he executed on it. And he's complicated. They portrayed a lot of those complications. Was it a little puffier? I mean, of course, when you have the family executive producing it, they're going to sand down some edges that everyone has in their lives. It was a really interesting inside look to family dynamics, dream pursuing, and sacrifices made by those things that people who excel go through.
Willy Walker: So, you had those dreams as a junior tennis player growing up in North Florida, where I am today. Talk a bit about life before you headed off to the Nick Bollettieri Tennis Academy. As I recall, you were a tennis player and a very good baseball player. What made you give up the diamond and head towards the court?
Jim Courier: I came from Dade City, Florida, a small town in Central Florida, and played Little League Baseball and soccer. My parents played social tennis. And as a result, my sister and I would follow them along and hit against the racquetball wall. And that's sort of how I fell for the sport. My parents started entering me in tournaments because I love playing it. You have to remember, when we were growing up Wills, unlike today there was a real seasonality to sports. You didn't play baseball, football, or lacrosse year-round the way that kids can now. It was a spring sport, baseball, and then I had a lot of free time to fill, and I wanted to play sports. It was fun. So, tennis was where I spent my time away from the diamond or the soccer field. At 13, I had to make the call because it was a binary situation of whether I would pursue baseball or tennis. Tennis at that stage had a ranking system. You knew where you stood relative to your peer group, not only in your state but also in the nation. Baseball at that point didn't offer that, so you had no way to judge if you were good or not, really, other than your local competition. It became a pretty easy call for me since I had a good national ranking in tennis, that's when I put the bat and glove down and went all-in on the racket.
Willy Walker: You play tennis as a righty, but you play golf as a lefty. When you're playing baseball, did you hit lefty and throw righty?
Jim Courier: Absolutely. And then here's the weirdest thing about me. I write with my right hand. I'm right arm dominant, but I kick with my left foot. I've met many people, a lot of tennis players who throw right, hit left. Or play their opposite hands in golf or baseball. Andre Agassi plays golf left. Mardy Fish, a great golfer does that. Ivan Lendl, Laver is a lefty who plays golf righty. So that's not unusual. But they all kick with their dominant side. I don't. I'm a little screwed up. You know that all too well.
Willy Walker: You can hit the hell of a golf ball, that I can assure anyone listening to this. So, had you won the Orange Bowl before heading to Bollettieri or did you go to Bollettieri and then win the Orange Bowl?
Jim Courier: The Orange Bowl was the biggest international junior tournament at that time, and I got to the finals in the 14 and under. That was really the turning point for me as far as getting on the radar of Nick Bollettieri. He had one of two tennis academies in existence at that point. They were both thankfully located in Central Florida. His was in Bradenton. So, I made the finals, I lost in the finals, but I got the call. Nick’s guys called up our house. We had phone books back then. They just called our house and offered a scholarship, and I was unbelievably grateful and excited. I dropped out of public school and joined a private school that Nick set up for me. You know, days later, I was there and just foaming at the mouth, ready to go.
Willy Walker: So, what was it like arriving at Bollettieri, where you're there where the world's top juniors were playing at that time. You were there; Andre was there. That had to have been quite something just to be admitted in. When you arrived, what were the other players like to you? Like if you go to a basketball camp, you get put on a team, you got four teammates who you're all trying to win and show off. When you show up somewhere like Bollettieri and an individual sport, it's sort of a dog-eat-dog world trying to be the number one there. What was it like to be admitted and at the same time, show up as a competitor to all the other kids?
Jim Courier: Yeah, it was an interesting dynamic. You frame it really well, Willy. I also started in January, so I didn't come in at the beginning of a school year where there were a lot of new faces that would be joining in September. So, I came into an area where everyone sort of made their friends. They had their cliques. There were 130 of us – about 100 boys, about 30 girls, all in various stages, primarily high school and some a little younger and you try to fit in. I knew most of the people in my age group because we played the same junior tournament, so I knew them. They were my peer group. They were friends and in all cases competitors as well because of the nature of our sport. So, I got thrown into a room with seven other guys. Andre was one of those guys, so it's a two-bedroom condo with four bunk beds in each room. And you know, they were already kind of dug in, if you will. So, I was the outsider, and I had to throw elbows to make some space and try to find space on the court and get Nick's attention. It was unbelievably competitive. I'd gone from training at home – basically scrapping and scrounging and having my mom drive me everywhere to find good practice after school to going on to a half-day of school and then just being on the court, in the gym or on the track and training like a professional. It was incredible. It was a fast track, and it was really something.
Willy Walker: And did you know at that time, Jim, that your athleticism was going to be the differentiator in the sense that you had obviously amazing strokes and you were an amazing tennis player? As you moved into your pro career, it was very clear that your athleticism is what differentiated you from the rest of the pack. Did you know at that age that that was the differentiator?
Jim Courier: No, I didn't, because again, the pond was getting bigger, and it was getting deeper when I went to Bollettieri’s. At that stage, it's not just a national group of players; we had international players like Goran Ivanisevic who was also coming in. You also had professionals like Aaron Krickstein and Yannick Noah and Carling Bassett, you know, top 10 players training there. So, you got a view of what it was really like at the top. And while I knew my tennis game was pretty good, it wasn't clear that I would be more athletic. And I would argue with you that I wasn't. I'd say if we did an NFL combine, for example, of the players at Bollettieri’s, I would have tested on the higher end of the scale, but I wasn't off the charts. There would have been better raw athletes, but that's what's interesting about sport, and it's sort of macro view down to, you know, it's not always the smartest, it's not always the fastest. It's not, you know, they're not always the ones who get to the top of the food chain.
There are lots of X factors. One of my strengths was that I had some of those X factors. I had guts. I wasn't afraid of big, “red light moments”, I call them when the cameras are on. That didn't bother me. I actually enjoyed it, and I wasn't afraid to fail. And that that was the biggest one. I wasn't afraid to fail. I was going to leave it all out there. And if it wasn't enough, that was OK. And there's a wall for some people that they just are not willing to scale, which is the failure wall, and it's comfortable on the other side of that one for them. And that was just by nature of how I was raised. That was never an obstacle for me.
Willy Walker: I was just going to say, I think a lot of that has to do with your mom and dad and the family structure that you had behind you as it relates to them. I've been asked a lot of times about how I became such a great entrepreneur. And first of all, I don't consider myself a very entrepreneurial person. And as people pushed me on that topic, they said, well, you've taken lots of risks. You might turn to Latin America and start an airline. You've done this, you've done that. And one of the things that I always had in the back of my mind is I went to Latin America and did various things because if all hell broke loose, I could still go home to caring parents, have a hot meal, and I could restart again. It appears to me as if when I think about Bollettieri at that time, a lot of kids were there that tennis was their only thing, and they had a lot of pressure on them to succeed. While you were fantastic and incredible at it, you were there at your desire, and if you decided you weren't going to do it, your parents are still going to say, come on home and figure out the next step is going to be.
Jim Courier: So that's really well put and really accurate, Willy. My parents really stressed effort over results, and I think that gave me that soft landing available to fail. I also wasn't someone that my parents told, “Oh, you're destined for greatness. You're an amazing athlete.” They were just focused on the day-to-day, telling me to be a good person, try to behave in a way that they'll be proud of and just do my best. And eventually good things will happen, as opposed to some other of my peers who had all these expectations placed on them that they were destined for greatness. The subtext of that is “if you don't become great, you're a failure.” I was never propositioned with what failure for me would look like, other than it is the result of a lack of effort. And I also ultimately knew that tennis would be a conduit for something good in my life.
My father was a baseball pitcher at the University of Florida and that's how he got his start in his world: getting a scholarship. And I knew that I was at a good enough level to get a scholarship and my parachute was going to be a free ride to a good college that would set me up for something else in life. And I was also learning skills that allowed me to be a successful businessperson and a successful teammate in an operation because I had the work ethic and discipline and ethics in general. Because in tennis, you have to call your own lines. Cheaters are widely known in the community, and that's not a good thing to be considered a cheater. There’re all these lessons that you learn, the macro and the micro and all of it congeals. But I saw plenty of players who had these expectations that weighed them down. I was lucky not to have that because my parents did an amazing job with me and my siblings.
Willy Walker: So, one of the first matches where, if you will, the expectation was that you were going to lose, was you against Andre in 1989 French Open, where you are both the two Nick Bollettieri protégés. You go to Paris, and the two of you go head-to-head. Huge day for the Bollettieri Tennis Academy of having the two of you play. Nick is sitting in Andre's box, not in your box. Talk for a moment about walking out on the court and seeing your coach sitting in your opponent's box rather than in some sort of midcourt seat. What did that do to drive you that day?
Jim Courier: Sure. Let me give a fuller picture than that because I was training at Nick’s, I was traveling with one of Nick's coaches. A guy named Sergio Cruz had been assigned to me who was traveling with me on the tour. I was part of Nick’s stable, and I spent time with Nick. He was sort of a master coach and then Sergio was the day-to-day coach. But, you know, Andre was high profile and that was a big part of Nick's strategy was to use the promotion of being out on tour with Andre and some of us as well to help promote the academy and drive business to the academy. I was a kid, right? I was 19. I was super focused on myself as most athletes; and most 19-year-olds tend to be. I didn't have a view of Nick's lens at all, so I was deeply hurt when I walked onto the court, and I saw Nick sitting in his box. I didn't anticipate that it was a gut punch. It was motivating, fired me up. It wasn't like I didn't want to win the match anyway.
You know, Andre and I'd had some battles on tour already at that point, and I was able to win on that day actually, a match had happened over two days. So, I even had more time to let the fire burn overnight after the match got called for darkness and we had to resume the next day. But it was a fork in the road for me, and Nick did me a favor in many ways. He did me so many favors and we certainly are very good friends today. After I grew up, we bridged that gap and understand life a little bit more. But it was. It was a fork in the road, and I left immediately after that tournament. I packed up my stuff and went my own separate way. It was a time to grow up in a way and leave the nest. And so, Nick, he regrets it since. But ultimately, he did me a favor.
Willy Walker: So fast forward from there, two years later, June of 1991. You and Andre are back at it at the finals of the French Open. You're down, and there's a rain delay. You go in, keep your thoughts on what you need to do, and you come back out, and you win the fourth set at 6-1and the fifth set at 6-4. You end up being the 1991 French Open champion. I've watched that match a thousand times. I've watched you drop to the ground when you win. So those of us who have absolutely no idea what it's like to be there on center court at a grand slam when all of a sudden it's all happened. What's that feel like? I mean, seriously, is it an out-of-body experience?
Jim Courier: You've had that feeling. I've only had it a few times in my life, but I would imagine most people listening to this will have had that feeling. It's the same feeling you have when your child is born. It's mind-blowing. It's overwhelming. It's endorphins, and it's adrenaline. It's surreal, and it's hard to capture that moment because everything is just flying by you like you're at warp speed. So, you know, it's a life-changing moment, and the only thing I can compare it to is childbirth. That's it. My life changed on that day. I fell to the ground in disbelief, and all those dreams that you have as a child, sort of come together in one moment and winning majors after that felt great, too. But it didn't feel anything like that because I already had experienced that breakthrough. It's like piercing a veil that you didn't know what was on the other side of the wall. You finally get to see it. So, it was surreal. It was overwhelming. And the next 48 hours were an absolute blur before the adrenaline finally came out of my body, and I went, oh oh yeah, Wimbledon is about 10 days away, I better get my stuff together and kind of get ready to go again. But it was awesome. It was amazing. And you know, the only way we're all lucky is if we're lucky enough to have kids to have moments like that where we ultimately see our lives change.
Willy Walker: So, at that moment, you said it took 48 hours for the adrenaline to get out of your body. Talk for a moment, Jim, about what it's like for all practical purposes, you were going at the world and now the world is going at you. How do you deal at the age of 20 with the onslaught of attention, press, sponsors, potential coaches, and everything that came at you so quickly?
Jim Courier: It's a great question: what happens when your world changes? So, in today’s terms with social media, just the fact that every single tennis match is now televised or streamed, there's been so much more attention, focus and opportunity as a result of that from a commercial standpoint for these players. And it's got to be daunting for them because they can't go anywhere without being videoed or photographed. And that was not a world that I inhabited in 1991. I could still sort of close the doors and get away. But, for the first time now people were coming at me, seeing me as something they wanted to be around for commercial reasons, primarily. And it was different for sure. And you have to hold your friends and family close and know why people want a piece of you and be wary of that. It's not that you're not going to meet really great people. I met you after I'd had that moment of fame. It's not that it's preventative from finding genuine friends, but you've got to be able to sift through them, and you've got to be able to compartmentalize. And one thing that I also came to understand which is a wonderful thing to help someone to know or help someone who goes through that transformative moment is that people by and large who come into the public eye rent a space – you don't own it. It was a space of a very highly ranked tennis player who could now do things for people and sell tickets, shoes, and rackets, which was different. I was commoditized and I'm grateful for it. It allowed me a great life as a result. But I also had to compartmentalize that aspect of it and make sure that I knew who my true friends and the core group of people around me were and hold them dear and then not lose sight of the fact that I still had to execute, that I still had to go out and win the next match. It’s a lot. We've seen it manifest itself, I think most acutely in someone like Naomi Osaka, who I'll be interviewing on court should she win her match later tonight here, Rod Laver Arena. You know, she's, I think, the most primary tennis example of someone's world flipping upside down and having a real hard time coming to terms with it.
Willy Walker: So, you said you got to go on and win the next match in 1991, you went on to the U.S. Open, Pete Sampras was the defending champion. Many people watching this will remember that that ‘91 US Open was also when Jimmy Connors, five-time U.S. Open champion at the age of 39 years old, came back and made it all the way to the semifinals. Sampras ran into a wall in the quarters against you. Jimmy Connors ran into a wall in the semis against you. Before we get to the end of that, U.S. Open…
Jim Courier: where I ran into the wall.
Willy Walker: Exactly like you say when you run into Edberg's wall. But before we get to the Edberg’s wall, I'll talk for a moment about that semifinal match against Jimbo, because all of us who were watching at that moment, the story of Jimmy Connors qualifying and getting to the semis was just this amazing story. And then here you are, the emerging great American star. And obviously, you just taken down Pete, who also had won the year before. So, there's this whole new cohort of up-and-coming Americans. You've just won the French, you're playing Jimmy Connors in the semifinals, and you beat him. It must have been a wild atmosphere at Stadium Court in Flushing Meadows. And how do you keep your head about you as everyone? They should be rooting for you because you're the emerging American star who just won the French Open. But at the same time, there are a lot of people in that court who want Jimmy Connors to have another shot.
Jim Courier: Yeah, that was Jimmy Connors U.S. Open. No one remembers it. Besides you and me that Stefan Edberg won that title. It's all about Jimmy, and rightfully so. You know, he was the lion in winter. He turned 39 during that tournament. He kept winning a dramatic match after a dramatic match. You know, it was amazing. It was awesome for tennis, and I didn't want to be the one to go shoot Bambi. I didn't want to be the one to kind of kill the buzz. Sean McManus and all the CBS team are still mad at me that I stopped Jimmy from getting to the finals. That cost them probably, a couple of points on their quarterly earnings. But you know, the way it goes is, Jimmy had also played a lot more tennis than I had, so I knew that I had a physical edge on him. I played him before, and I'd had success against him.
I was confident, and I was fresh. I hadn't lost a set, but I was afraid. I was really afraid of that moment because, you know, it's a 20,000-seat stadium. At that time, it was Louis Armstrong Stadium was the main court, and they were going to be 10 people cheering for me that day, and they were in my players' box. And that's OK. I knew that. That wasn't a surprise to me. But walking onto the court, you had to walk through a rope line from the locker room to get underneath the stadium that felt like I was being fed to the lions. And then you walk onto the court, and you just got to try and keep your head together and focus on what's in front of you. And that's easier said than done. But my main goal that day was just to stake an early lead and try and silence the crowd. That's kind of the one beautiful thing about sports is if you've got, you know, a marauding audience there, you're the one who's in control, they can motivate, and they can scare you. But ultimately, they can't hit shots for Jimmy, and they can't stop you from hitting yours. So, I was able to use all the factors of how the match up actually worked okay for me. How I was fresher than Jimmy and take the crowd out of it a little bit early on, and that helped me get through there. But I can't tell you I wasn't more relieved than happy when that match was over. That's the truth. For me it was a huge relief to get through that match because I knew if he did get a lead it would be incredibly raucous and loud, and he was going to ride the wave. Now that's the one thing. I also knew that if they got going, that motivated him and if they were quiet, that might pop the balloon a little bit. And then ultimately, I think that's what happened.
Willy Walker: So, you then run into the Stefan Edberg buzz saw in the finals and lose in straight sets, but then turn around four or five months later in Australia and avenge that loss to Edberg by winning your first Australian Open. You've gone from, as you said in Roland Garros, that incredible feeling from your first major to now your second major title and beating someone who had just beaten you in the U.S. Open finals. Talk for a moment about what you remember about Australia in the first time winning Down Under.
Jim Courier: I was really anxious going into that match because he'd blown me out in the U.S. Open final. I really was just focused on; I just need to win a set here somewhere in the first couple sets to get settled in and prove to him that I could stay on the court with him. And Edberg is a guy that I'd played quite a bit actually before that U.S. Open final. My very first ATP final was in Basel, Switzerland, which is ironically where Federer is from and was a ball boy at a certain stage. And at that point in time, those were best of five set finals, and I beat Stefan in the five setter, 7-5 in the fifth to win my first title, so I knew I could beat him, but he rattled me in New York. In Australia, I came out with that simple mindset of let's focus, let's try and keep it simple. Let's not think too much about the past. Let's just try and execute our game plan and get a set, you know, in the first couple of sets and then settle in and go to work because I knew I was incredibly fit and it tends to be hot in Australia, I thought that would be an advantage for me. And ultimately, I was able to get into the match, sink my teeth into it and take him out in four sets, and it was incredibly satisfying. It wasn't as exhilarating, though, as winning Roland Garros. It was more satisfying because of the arc of the story from New York.
Willy Walker: At this time, Jim, there was a real sense that the new generation of players was coming up and that the older generation was sort of exiting at this time. So, I think in that Australian Open, Lendl, McEnroe, and Becker. But Becker didn't retire for a while; both played and then in the next Wimbledon; that was the last time that Mac as well as Connors played in a pro tournament. What was it like being part of the kind of emerging players of you, Pete, and Andre where there was this incredible cohort of former champions for the decade of the 80s that were on their way out, as you all were coming in in the 90s?
Jim Courier: Yeah, it was interesting because we heard all about, you know what? Who's next? That was the story when we were teens. Who's next after this amazing generation with Jimmy, John, Arthur Ashe, and Stan Smith? We just always had major champions. So, they're wondering who's next? And there is concern that there wouldn't be someone next. And Pete was the second to market as far as that goes because Michael Chang, another one of our peers, was the first one of us to win a major. He won Roland Garros at age 17, incredibly, and then Pete won the U.S. Open as a 19-year-old. So, we got an early start, and then it all started of settling in. Andre was the first of us to turn pro, had the first early success. He was the last of those four players to win a major. But he had an incredible career, winning eight in total. And of course, Peter at 14, was the mark in our time on tour. So, it was incredible to have that competitive structure within the United States of one-upping each other and competing and pushing each other and being dragged along and believing. Because we saw Michael win a major that we were close enough to do that. It wasn't something that only Gods can do, because when you're a kid, and you're watching Lendl and Mack and Connors and these guys dominate, you think they're not mortal, they're living in a box in my house. I don't know that these people really exist. And then you become one of them, and see your friends become one of them – that's when you realize they're just mortals who are pretty good at their job.
But look, we thrived on that competition, and I think we really helped each other. But you know, there’s also an argument to be made that if there was just one of us, there would have been benefit there too. If you were the only one you probably would have had more commercial success because it wouldn't have been divided. So, you know, you can look at it through a lot of different lenses, but I'm pretty grateful that I was a part of that group that not only included people that won majors, we also had great players like Todd Martin, who made the finals of Australia in the U.S. Open, and Mal Washington, who was a Wimbledon finalist, and David Wheaton, a semifinalist at Wimbledon, we had so many players up at the top or near it from America at that time. It was fun to be a part of.
Willy Walker: Were you friends with Pete and Andre at that time?
Jim Courier: So, Pete and I turned pro the same day we trained together the first couple of years on tour. We played doubles together on tour the first couple of seasons. Andre and I always had a little bit more of a spicy relationship because at Bollettieri there was that dynamic. We were living in the same room, the first semester. I was fighting for attention. Andre already had it, so there was always that dynamic. And it's interesting because Andre and I are close now. As time passes and you evolve, you realize how much you have in common with these people despite your differences and all the shared experiences. But we are also part of Davis Cup teams together. We spent time on the bench, you know, pulling for each other as well. So, it was complicated because you're also trying to take the most precious things away from each other in the big tournaments that you're all dreaming of winning. So, it's a complicated deal. But we've all come out on the other side pretty well.
Willy Walker: You won Davis Cup in 1992 and 1995 in Russia, playing them on their home court. What was it like going from being in such an individual sport to being on a team and working with these people you compete with every day on the pro tour to actually being teammates?
Jim Courier: Davis Cup was fun; those were some of the best weeks of my career. I loved the buildup to it, or we were just training and playing cards together at night, eating all the meals together and vibing. I love that as much as the actual competition, although it was incredibly meaningful to play for the U.S. to play for your teammates, to play for the tennis fans, it was an honor to be a part of. But all those hidden moments where you're getting a little closer to the people that you're literally trying to punch out on the court the next week. It's an amazing dynamic. Of course, you can compare it to Ryder Cup and Presidents Cup and Golf, but the difference in golf is that they play the golf course. Yes, they play against each other on a weekly basis, but you can't play defense in golf. All you can do is go low. In tennis, what I do implicitly affects you and vice versa. Strategy matters. Defense matters. It's more akin to boxing without the blood and the bruises in a way. It's one on one. So, it's an interesting dynamic. I cherish those moments. I was lucky enough to be the captain of the U.S. team as well. So, I saw it from the leadership side and trying to put those relationships together for the week. It's special and there's nothing better Willy than hearing an umpire say, “game, set, match, United States of America.” That is incredible.
Willy Walker: You got that also when you were in the Olympics in 1992. On the Davis Cup, before we move off that, you were team captain from 2010 to 2018. Is that role, Jim, more of a coaching role or a GM role?
Jim Courier: It's an interesting combination of the two because all of these players have their individual day to day coaches. So, you have to work with them, and be in the loop with them throughout the year. So, you know what the players are going through, but there's the coaching side of it where you're uniquely on the bench and you're coaching the players in real time while they're competing. You've got to be able to understand how to manage their personalities. You have to understand this is a management issue. You know, coaching is very much like management. You have to understand who you're talking to and how they hear things because you can literally say the same sentence to two different players, and they'll hear it very differently. So, it's about understanding those moments, and it took me a little bit of time to figure that piece out. You really have to put yourself in their shoes and try and understand their psyche, which is why I admire the coaches so much, especially these big teams and how they can keep people organized and focused and gelled together. But I love the challenge. We never got there. We never made it to a final. We didn't quite have the horses in my time to do it, but it was a great experience for me. I loved every minute of it, except for those tough handshakes at the end of the matches when you've lost. Those are difficult, but you know, there's still something to that is special.
Willy Walker: You mentioned we didn't have the horses to get there. The U.S. hasn't seen an American major champion since Andy Roddick won in 2003. So, we're in year 18 of a drought of an American men's major champion. After so long of the U.S. dominating this sport, other than the fact that there are three people from Spain, Switzerland and Serbia who all are incredibly talented and dominated the sport for the last 15 to 20 years. Other than that minor point, why is it that there isn't an American at the top of the rankings today?
Jim Courier: Well, we can't avoid the minor point. You know, Andy Roddick won one major, and then Federer got there, and Federer stopped Andy, who probably would have won five or six in another era. But Federer was there to block, and you cannot underestimate how difficult it's been for anyone to break through from anywhere. You got three extraterrestrials playing at the same time with Djokovic, for example, they've been unbelievably consistent, durable, and successful across surfaces. And then you factor in for us in America what I've seen apart from Andy. And there's some exceptions. But I would say that generally the rule of thumb for me, watching the American players since Andy emerged, is that very few of them do everything right. And what I mean by that is nutrition, fitness training, and all the little intangibles that make a player actually reach their best.
Some of them are incredibly talented, but they're afraid to fail. I've seen that on multiple occasions. Some of them are very comfortable. They make plenty of money. They make generational wealth not being a champion, because there's a dearth of Americans. And if you get to be one of the top Americans, there's enough sponsorship money out there or appearance fees at some of the smaller tournaments to make you think you're incredibly successful. On a scale of success in the world, generally speaking, to be 15 in the world at anything you do is amazing. It absolutely is. But that for me, is not the goal. I mean, yeah, of course we want to be successful, but for me, the thing that I sleep well at night on, and I think every player should aspire to is to be the best you can be. Explore all the options to be the best that you can be. See where it goes. And then when you're when it's all said and done, if 500 in the world is the best you can be, good for you. And if it's No. 1 in the world, even better. But for me, that's how I define success. And for too many of the American players, that's not how they've defined it. And I've had that discussion with all of them that I've been able to come into contact with. I can't tell you, Willy, how many times I've been asked to speak at U.S. Tennis Association meetings with the top players, and I've given that same speech, but you've got to be willing to do it, and I haven't seen enough of that, unfortunately. And with that, you don't give yourself a chance. Not that it would have made a difference in this era, but it will, going forward. And I, we have some green shoots right now in American men's tennis, and I'm certainly optimistic, more optimistic than I've been in a while.
Willy Walker: So, you went on to defend your championship at Roland Garros.
Jim Courier: Does it have to be all about me?
Willy Walker: I'm almost done on that because I want to get some other stuff before we end it all. So, you go on to beat Korda to win your second French Open. You then return to Australia and defend your title against Edberg and beat him again. So, you now got four majors in a little less than two years, and that's the last major you win.
Talk for a moment, Jim, about having been at that level where you've got such kind of tight success, you're the number one ranked tennis player in the world. You seemingly have this long career ahead of you of continuing to win tournaments and championships, and then if you look back on it, you're still a pro for the next seven years before you retired in 2000. But that was the top that was where you got. Talk for a moment about what that was like once you've been there and trying to stay there or accepting that you're not going to stay at that level.
Jim Courier: Yeah. What I just laid out for you with Andy Roddick is, by and large, what I also lived. Pete Sampras was a better athlete. He was faster than me. Pete Sampras had a serve that was the best we would see in our time. He had some assets that I didn't quite have, but Pete wasn't as organized early in his career, and he lacked consistency. He got organized in the same way that Federer took a little time for him to get organized. Then when Pete did, he not only pulled, even he pulled away, and there wasn't much that I would be able to do other than just continue to do my very best and try and get better in increments and see if I can get there again. And unfortunately, I couldn't. But I was at peace with all that because I knew every night when I went to bed that I'd done everything I could that day to be the best tennis player I could be, and I was competing hard and competing well and I would get close. I would get to more finals. I would get to more semis and quarters and be knocking on the door, but I wouldn't break through, and so be it. You have to understand that everyone has limitations, and your job is to try and overcome them as much as possible. But there's a good chance, even if you're the best in the world, that someone out there is working hard to try and find a way to get past you. Obviously, you try and prevent that as much as you can, but there's only so much one can do. So, I'm at peace with that. Others may not be. And I understand that others may have that competitive fire where they can't turn that off and say, I can't stand losing, and it's too much. But I was still content in the same way I was content when I was starting on tour and in my apex of which you just outlined in that little area where I could win those majors and be number one. And then the period after that, I approached it the same way at all times, didn't have the same success after that. But that's OK. If my career were a fish, I wouldn't throw it back.
Willy Walker: Greatly said. So, you retire in 2000, inducted in the Tennis Hall of Fame in 2005 and start your commentating career. I know you do a ton of homework on the game, on the players to be as good a commentator as you are. You enjoy it?
Jim Courier: I love commentating. Most people probably watching this unless they're really diehard tennis fans won't know that I'm a commentator because, you know, if you watch tennis as a general sports fan, you typically see it on ESPN. So, I don't work for ESPN. I work for Tennis Channel in America, covering everything but the majors. And then I work for groups like Channel nine down here in Australia, which is like an NBC, if you will, or I work for Amazon Prime, for example, during the U.S. Open for the UK feed. Johnny Mac is so great at what he does, and he's sort of occupied the center of all those great jobs in TV.
There's not been space for me to be kind of an American commentator, if you will, but I love it. I'm incredibly grateful for the opportunities I've been given. I just love being in the middle of the action and being able to watch history get made, and I get to do that as a commentator and be a part of it and hopefully shed a little bit of light on what is going on in the court and help the audience see it in a different way. I find it incredibly interesting from just a brain exercise aspect. Because every day is different, and I'm trying to analyze and break down and use all the data that's now available to us to try and shed light on why something is happening. That that's sort of the number one job for me is to tell you why something is happening. If you happen to be watching a broadcast I'm on; you can see what is happening, see the score, you can see the players. But my job is to tell you why that's happening and give you some context. So, I find it to be really, really intriguing and enjoyable. And it's a performance too. I like to perform, so it's another way to perform in a way.
Willy Walker: you're very gracious in your comments about John McEnroe, who many of us who do watch tennis love to listen to Johnny Mac. But I wonder, Jim, you won Australia twice and the French twice. Johnny Mac won Wimbledon three times in the U.S., Open twice.
Jim Courier: He won the U.S. Open four times. Let’s not shortchange him.
Willy Walker: It's seven versus four. I got that. I guess my question is this: you won, if you will, of the four majors. People look at the U.S. Open and Wimbledon as the two major majors, if you will. Do you think it would change a little bit had you won the U.S. Open and Wimbledon rather than the French and the Australian as it relates to you versus Johnny Mac in the commentating world?
Jim Courier: I mean, look, John retired sooner than I did, so he staked his position and did a great job and continues to do a great job doing it. And there is something to once you get into a seat in television that it's awfully tough to get toppled if you're competent. It's safer for the executives not to have any risk, and there's no risk in having John McEnroe do your broadcast in the same way that in Australia, I've been in this seat for 18 years, believe it or not. So, if you get it and you're competent, and you don't cause the executives heartache, you can hold on to your seat. But winning Wimbledon, that's the granddaddy. That's like winning the Masters in golf. It just has a cachet that that unlike anything else in the sport. And then, if you're an American, U.S. Open obviously has massive cachet as well. So, you know, I think if you're going to rank the majors in order of importance, you go Wimbledon, U.S. Open, Roland Garros, Australia, historically. But you know, if you're from Paris, if you're from France in U.N. Roland-Garros, that's probably more valuable, more important than winning Wimbledon even.
Willy Walker: Right. And I guess the person who's actually, from a commentator standpoint, gone and won Wimbledon is Chris Fowler, who went from being a tennis commentator to now commentating what I read in Jason Gay article over the weekend in the Wall Street Journal called the Nick Saban Annual Invitational. I met Chris with you down in Australia years ago. And Chris, I'm surprised he's still, quite honestly, I'm surprised he’s still covering tennis after all of his success with college football.
Jim Courier: Well, he loves tennis. He's always been a tennis fan. Even before ESPN had the rights to tennis, he would come and watch tournaments. You know, he was the face of college game day for years, and Chris is an amazing broadcaster. He's a good friend. And yeah, the fact that he is involved in tennis, I think, has a lot of credibility to ESPN's coverage. He does a terrific job and obviously he's just a, he's the boss when it comes to college football for them.
Willy Walker: Are they down or out of the studio up here?
Jim Courier: They're doing it in Connecticut now that last year they had to do it from home, and I think they realized some serious financial savings, honestly and doing it remotely, and it remains to be seen whether they'll ever send everyone back here.
Willy Walker: In our few minutes that we have to close out, Jim. So, you and Susanna have two boys. Given you growing up in competitive tennis and seeing what it takes to win and seeing the kind of perseverance to make it to the top levels. You and your boys have fantastic genes, given that Susanna was a very accomplished tennis player herself. Any pressure on the boys to play tennis, golf or just find their own way in athletics?
Jim Courier: There's no pressure on them from our standpoint. There's opportunity, that's the way that we frame it. We present them options to enjoy sports, music, and things that they might be interested in, like monster trucks and dinosaurs. You know, we want them to have a very full experience as children. And both Susanna and I had wonderful experiences through tennis. We both played a lot of junior tennis and lived that as kids. And as we talked about earlier, played a lot of other sports. So, our boys have tennis rackets. They do take tennis lessons. They will not listen to either parent when it comes to instruction. So, we have a wonderful coach for them who teaches them once a week. Golf there in golf clinics, they do some basketball with friends after school. I want to introduce them to team sports as well and whatever else they're interested in.
We see our job as parents is to open doors for them to walk through, and we'll follow them where they go. That's the way we see it. If we end up on weekends at tennis tournaments, the way our parents did. I'll be happy. I won't be sad if that's not the case. You know, I'll be just as happy for them to find another passion. But having a passion is really a requirement in our house, so they're going to have to find something to commit energy to that just to keep them out of trouble.
Willy Walker: Well, I would say, Jim, that doesn't surprise me, that that's yours and Susanna's attitude towards your kids, and I would say from the documentary that was made on Nick Bollettieri, they talk about Jimmy Courier. And when you arrive there, what your attitude was like and what your personality was like, it's a real testament to you that that attitude and personality endured throughout your fantastic career as a brilliant tennis player. But at the end of it all, just an absolutely fantastic person.
I'm honored that you took the time to do this. I'm honored to have you as a buddy. Have a great time Down Under and I greatly greatly appreciate you joining me today.
Jim Courier: Willy, it's been my absolute pleasure to be on this. Obviously, I love you, pal, and I can't believe you wasted all this time researching. You could have just picked up the phone. Just silly. Give Sheila my best.
Willy Walker: (Laughs) All right. Good to see you buddy.
Jim Courier: Good to see you. And hopefully, I'll see you in person real soon.
Willy Walker: Look forward to it. Take care.
Jim Courier: Bye pal.
